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DOGEMPEROR

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Source of "Bible coins" distributed by USMC in Iraq discovered

Sun Jun 1, 2008 5:02 PM EDT
world-news, iraq, military, religious-right, dominionism, scandals
By dogemperor
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In what is--sadly--yet another case of the extent of which blatant prosyletisation is tolerated in the modern US military, a recent incident where members of the US Marine Corps were handing out coins to persons in Fallujah with John 3:16 on one side and "where will you spend eternity?" on the other shows that dominionism can even be potentially a risk to national security.

One thing that has *not* yet been revealed in this incident--which has already led to the suspension of at least one Marine--is the source of the coins, a fundamentalist "Bible church" which increasingly has embraced both war imagery--and America's fighting men.

Tracking down the group behind the Coin Fiasco

The group behind the incident--one of a series of incidents of blatant dominionist prosyletisation of Iraqis--is a disturbing example of both targeting of the military *and* the increasing military imagery of certain "Christian Nationalist" groups.

A good friend of mine (and incidentially, one of the folks who first convinced me to write about what I'd seen "behind the lines" in the Joel's Army movement) is probably the first to have noted the actual source of the coins in the latest scandal. Suprisingly, this hasn't been brought up before--so feel free to distribute thsi and distribute it widely.

As it turns out, one group of folks promoting these "bible coins" specifically to Marines are a group calling themselves Basic Training Bible Ministries and specifically a group calling itself Osborne Coinage:

The Rest of the Story

As I said earlier, every story at its ending is the beginning of a new story. Building on the idea of Gary Horton's "America" coin we took the legacy of Arthur Stace's question and developed the "Where will you spend eternity" coin, with John 3:16 on the other side. Here is what Paul Harvey likes to call "the rest of the story". In 1999 I was asked to teach at the Arizona youth Camp, which was hosted by Westside Bible Church in Glendale, Arizona. I brought the "Where will you spend eternity" coins with me and gave them to many who attended the camp. One of those who received them was Burt Camenzind, from California. Burt first impressed me for serving as night watchman all night, then attending every Bible class during the camp, without fail. When Burt received the coin, his eyes lit up, and he said, "Imagine if this coin was translated into many other languages. How many people could be reached for Christ?"

Burt soon began to put his vision into practice. Every time he would meet someone who had immigrated to California from another part of the world, Burt would ask them how to write "Where will you spend eternity" in their native language. Then he would share with them John 3:16, at the same time witnessing to them of the power of Christ to save, and asking how to write the verse in their language. Burt began a one-man crusade to get the coin in as many languages as possible. At last count I believe he has personally had the coin translated and minted in at least 80 different languages! Recently I walked in to a shop in Prescott Valley, Arizona and found a pile of the coins on the counter. I asked the proprietor about the coins and was told, "Yes, they are there for people to take. Isn't it wonderful! I get them from this man named Burt in California. And the amazing thing is, he doesn't sell them. When I call he just sends a box to me, free of charge. But I always try to send an offering to help with the cost."

Over the last few years, I have carried these coins to some far-flung corners of the world. We have been surprised to find on returning to some places years later, people carrying or wearing the coins around their neck. In some places, we have seen them turned into ear-rings! We have found that unlike a paper tract, they cannot be torn up or wadded into a ball. When you throw them down, they ring like any coin, and people are quick to run and pick them up. We once saw on the streets of Perth our daughter toss one from the second story balcony of a Coffee house, onto the mall below. A street band was playing, and one of the band picked up the coin. After reading both sides (I have never seen anyone only read one side) he placed the coin on his guitar case. Later, another member of the band saw it, picked it up, and after reading it, tossed it down the mall. It went ringing down the way, and immediately, someone picked it up, read it, and put it in their pocket. It is in this way, by an obscure and unknown ministry, that Burt Camenzind has become the "Mr. Eternity" of our times. To order the coins directly call Osborne Coinage (1-800-488-2646).

Osborne Coinage would appear to be primarily a token manufacturer--making the sorts of coins formerly used in the NYC subway system, the tokens at old arcades and present-day casinos, and so on. (One of their more popular lines apparently seems to be custom coins for Mardi Gras krewes.) Hence, we must look more at the group promoting the coins.

The proprietor of these coins, one Gene Cunningham, is linked with at least two fundamentalist "Bible churches" (and maintains links with several others. (As best can be determined, his group would fit more in the vein of "Fundamentalist Baptist" than neopentecostal.)

Their doctrinal statement in and of itself raises a number of red flags. Not only is it the classic "bibolatrous" statement (that places the Bible, and its inerrancy, above that of God and Jesus), not only is it premillenial-dispensationalist (which is not always a danger sign, but in conjunction with a few other things *can* be a sign of a church that merits careful watching), but whilst (in a rare example) explicitly declaring itself non-pentecostal *does* espouse the concept of the "fivefold ministry" common in "Joel's Army" neopentecostal churches.

One of the things that the crew at Basic Training seems to be especially fond of is the concept of using disaster aid as "missionary activity"; again, not unlike "Joel's Army" groups, the concept of "prayer warriors" is common in the group. The org also seems to promote its own version of Alcoholics Anonymous, only this time with Jesus explicitly noted as an essential step in addiction recovery.

And of particular note--keeping in mind that this church is surprisingly genteel in its adoption of military imagery--there *does* seem to be a lot of targeting of Marines and other military personnel. Among other things, apparently an explicit missionary effort aimed at both Marines--and at Moslems in Iraq--is sponsored by Basic Training Ministries...including the very coins linked to the scandal.

As for Burt Camenzind, he would appear to ESPECIALLY be a piece of work.

We focus on the man behind the curtain

Camenzind, the other person behind the "Bible Coins" (and, it would appear, now the primary person behind minting and producing them), would appear to himself be linked to fundamentalist-Baptist "Bible church" televangelists, who happily promote his "Bible coins". It'd appear, based on one of the televangelists happily hawking the coins, that ol' Burt specialised in a particularly nasty form of "bait and switch" evangelism before he cottoned on the coin idea:

Burt first used a small passenger airplane for his evangelistic efforts. He would invite children to look at his plane and offer them a ride, and then he would share the gospel with them. When Burt learned of the gospel coins, he saw an even greater opportunity. He says, "God is teaching me through the coins how to share the gospel without them." Each day, Burt mails out between 2,000 and 20,000 coins, so others can share their faith as well.

(Yes, you read that right. Sucker little Johnny in with a plane ride in a Cessna, and then once he's literally a captive audience at 5000 feet, spring the hard-sell evangelism on him. All the better reason to convince your kids NOT to accept plane rides from strange men.)

The only other bit of info I can find on Camenzind is more than enough. It turns out he operates a nonprofit known as "Operation Grace"; interestingly, it does *not* use the infamous "form 990 loophole", but does put out a form 990. According to aforementioned form 990, pretty much the entire business of the group is putting out those "Bible coins". If Google Maps is to be believed, "Operation Grace" would appear to be run entirely out of Camenzind's house.

Camenzind's little coins seem to be popular with a number of groups--including, notably, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, a pentecostal denomination that can be said to be the most direct ancestor of the Assemblies of God.

And it is here, ultimately, that the latest incident in a history of prosyletisation in Iraq finds its home. We write much more about this tomorrow--including how, ironically, one of the oldest Christian communities in the world has been decimated because of aggressive dominionist "missionary" groups.

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  • Public Discussion (77)
  • Outing Dominionism (0)
Kid Kilowatt

Are the coins redeemable for "freedom points"?
Very revealing article, dogemporer. Thank you!!

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 6:47 PM EDT
AdipicAcid

Actually, they get you one lousy credit on the Missile Command machine in Heaven's waiting room. Considering how long some of these jackals are likely to be sitting there, I hope they are stocking up.

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:50 AM EDT
Reply
winsomecowboy

Solid reporting, well presented, liked the tendency to go one layer deeper, ie, googling the biz address.

Thanks.

  • 9 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 7:59 PM EDT
dadeo007Deleted
Reply
GW-292081

So the moment that Iraqis complain about the coins being passed out the army cracks down and punishes troops involved, because its against rules already in place for years. This somehow translates into the military tolerating proselytizing?

"one of the oldest Christian communities in the world has been decimated because of aggressive dominionist "missionary" groups. "
Last I heard the indigenous Christians of Iraq were being driven out or killed by Muslim extremists.
Has any Fundamentalist Christian organization been implicated in the kidnapping and murders of Iraqi church authorities?

The only thing blatant in this article is the ill disguised hatred for the belief system of the majority of US citizens so frequently displayed by the pseudo-intelectual left.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 8:34 PM EDT
winsomecowboy

you could calm down, it's sunday, be a happy christian, what have you to fear? you are a majority as you point out. What's your problem? You cannot be a majority and act like a persecuted minority at the same time, that's illogical.

I hate to bring this up but, you know, get smarter and all that, but you spelt pseudo-intellectual incorrectly. Unless you do that on purpose as a kind of badge of anti-intellectual honor.

either way, facts were presented and your christianity is threatened? Pretty shallow faith in my opinion.

  • 14 votes
#3.1 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 8:42 PM EDT
JoulesBeef

it is horrid that we saved iraq for them to become intolerant.
you should write an article on it.
I'm against the persecution of all religions.
drop me a note when you write the article and I'll come vote and comment in it.
Seriously this is the first I heard of this and It would be a good thing for all of to know if it is true.

WIth that said.. it is insanely and hidesous stupid and dangerous to proselytize in a war zone especially when the muslims are under the impression we are at war with islam and doubly especially in an enemy stronghold like fallujah? What the heck man, do they want us to get hit? do they really want to give the enemy recruiting ammo? This must be stopped. The church should be prosecuted. They are putting our troops in danger and no matter your beliefs, this is unacceptible. You want to convert the iraqis, wait until the war is over or convert those that want to be converted...IE COME TO YOU.

last many on "the left" go to church as well.

  • 7 votes
#3.2 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:08 PM EDT
Robert Blevins - AB of Seattle

'GW-292081'

What is up with these six-digit usernames appearing all over the place? Always a name or some initials, then a six-digit number. It's like a convict number or something out of the film 'THX-1138'.

Okay, no problem with that. However...almost every time I decide to click on one of these usernames to find out more about them (since many of them have STRONG opinions at NV), all I get is this:

No articles

No seeds

No bio

No picture

NO NOTHING.

But, brother...they got an opinion for YOU.

  • 6 votes
#3.3 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:16 PM EDT
Jarandhel

So the moment that Iraqis complain about the coins being passed out the army cracks down and punishes troops involved, because its against rules already in place for years. This somehow translates into the military tolerating proselytizing?

As I said in response to a similar question in one of my own posts on this subject:

So far it's one soldier that has been caught doing it. But Iraqis interviewed have said there have been more than one doing it: "Residents said some Marines at the western entrance to their city have been passing out the coins for two days in what they call a "humiliating" attempt to convert them to Christianity." It also comes on the heels of a US sniper that was removed from Iraq for using the Koran for target practice, and in the wake of a number of scandals (both on US soil and in the Iraqi theater) regarding proselytization to other soldiers and religious discrimination in the military. Taken together, it all paints a rather disturbing picture about the extent to which fundamentalism is warping our military.

But hey, go play the victim of a persecuted religious majority if it makes you feel better. Others of us are paying attention and noting the overall patterns displayed in the military with regard to religion. And I hate to break it to you, but dogemperor (and the left for that matter) have no problems with Christianity. It's Dominionism we're against.

  • 4 votes
#3.4 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:19 PM EDT
Wheel

Typical behavior for the fundie christian nuts. Shame this behavior has spread to our soldiers.

  • 3 votes
#3.5 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:58 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

What is up with these six-digit usernames appearing all over the place? Always a name or some initials, then a six-digit number. It's like a convict number or something out of the film 'THX-1138'.

I actually emailed the vine about this once. Apparently they are new users who cannot yet post articles, seeds etc, and therefore have a temporary name. All they are able to do is comment on posts. I also found it strange, and was convinced that a few of them were in fact the same person. It was also on a religious thread, interestingly.

  • 6 votes
#3.6 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 6:43 AM EDT
Jarandhel

How long do they retain this temporary status? This one appears to have been commenting for months. And I thought that newsvine's policies just put new users in the greenhouse, not forced them to have temporary accounts?

  • 5 votes
#3.7 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
Division by Zero

What is up with these six-digit usernames appearing all over the place? Always a name or some initials, then a six-digit number. It's like a convict number or something out of the film 'THX-1138'.

Okay, no problem with that. However...almost every time I decide to click on one of these usernames to find out more about them (since many of them have STRONG opinions at NV), all I get is this:

No articles

No seeds

No bio

No picture

NO NOTHING.

But, brother...they got an opinion for YOU.

Sock puppets.

  • 7 votes
#3.8 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:17 AM EDT
Gwenny

So the moment that Iraqis complain about the coins being passed out the army cracks down and punishes troops involved, because its against rules already in place for years. This somehow translates into the military tolerating proselytizing?

The point is, the military should not have waited until someone complained to invoke the rules. Why? Because it tolerates it. If the Marines were having sex with teenage blond who came through the checkpoint, it's doubtful the leaders would wait until someone complained . .wait, what am I saying. Of course they would. ::sigh::

I used to REALLY like the Marines.

  • 8 votes
#3.9 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:53 AM EDT
dungbeetlemania

How long do they retain this temporary status?

I managed to find the vine's reply to my query, this is what I got.

Just to let you know, users with numbers like 254727, 249515, 255600, etc.
are people who have posted one comment and then were prompted to register.
So they are all new users (which is why their columns don't have any content
yet). Nothing illicit is going on. Thanks for keeping a look-out!

They certainly do comment multiple times, as a look at GW-292081's profile shows. But this one has only been active since May, not months at least.

  • 6 votes
#3.10 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
Jarandhel

Sorry, I mistaken looked at the months the articles he commented on were posted rather than for the months of the comments themselves. I didn't even realize I had to click a different setting to see them by the date of comment.

  • 3 votes
#3.11 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 2:20 PM EDT
Reply
GW-292081

" hate to bring this up but, you know, get smarter and all that, but you spelt pseudo-intellectual incorrectly. Unless you do that on purpose as a kind of badge of anti-intellectual honor. "
Or it could be a tactic to draw some Pseudo-Intellectual into the sort of spelling flame which reveals that they have no real response.

There was no response to my question now was there.

The US Military like every military in history, except the communists I expect, has provided Chaplin services for the benefit of the troops.

  • 1 vote
Reply#4 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
Wheel

The US Military like every military in history, except the communists I expect, has provided Chaplin services for the benefit of the troops.

and what, exactly, does that have to do with this story? The military provides doctors too but that fact doesn't enter into this discussion.

  • 4 votes
#4.1 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:00 PM EDT
winsomecowboy

This whole bollocks, and you'll have to excuse me but that's what it is, with firmly held opinions that cannot stand any analysis and use the short term tactic of scattergun distraction, ie chaplin services for crying out loud, followed no doubt by something equally facile and immaterial and irrelevant is the new catchment process by which MSM is amalgamated into newsvine with the hope that it's free, goodwill driven, manhours will allow some new unschooled 'make a comment and join later' to actually learn the culture and get smarter instead of merely broadcasting beliefs unfounded in anything in particular apart from that great, I say obscene, conceit that all opinions are equal.

If your opinion cannot stand the merest of scrutiny and if your only defence of that opinion is either attacking strawmen or going for some childish distraction then your opinion is worthless, less than worthless because it's ignorance bleeds into our newsvine culture which is one in which opinions are respected, discussed, debated and sometimes people get smarter.

This whole, open the drains and let the consumers treat the place like the rest of the internet where loud ignorant indignance beats intelligent discussion is the price we pay presumably for Newsvines growth.

You know why I didn't answer your question GW-292081?

Because it had nothing to do with the topic and furthermore was a ridiculous emotive distracting piece of fluff that would have actually made me dumber just getting down to the level where i took it seriously.

Obviously you're welcome to your opinions but there's more to convincing others of them than simply getting your back up, getting defensive, attacking convenient stereotypes and dancing backwards as fast as you can while scattering disruptive bon mots.

In short try communicating like a grown up.

  • 6 votes
#4.2 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:45 PM EDT
Wheel

guys, please, it's chaplain, Chaplin was the movie guy.

  • 5 votes
#4.3 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:54 PM EDT
Perry O

No, he had it right. Throughout history militaries have fielded small, elite units of bowler hatted troops, decked out with identical tiny mustaches, marching in a curious sidefooted gait. Called Chaplins, they are absolutely lethal with their weapon of choice, a slender, flexible cane-like stick. A young Charles Goldstein served briefly in a Chaplin unit of the British Army. Recognizing the comic potential of their incongruous uniform and march, he adapted them into a vaudeville act and adopted the unit name as his own last name. The rest, as they say, is history.

  • 11 votes
#4.4 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:28 AM EDT
AdipicAcid

These units are actually horrifically efficient as well. They can subsist entirely on the shoes of their enemies, thus prolonging their usefulness in the field while at the same time degrading the mobility of the enemies' infantry.

  • 7 votes
#4.5 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:53 AM EDT
ultrajc

I prefer Charlie Chaplin Services to chaplain services.

City Lights, The Tramp, The Gold Rush are all more spiritually uplifting lessons on how to redeem oneself.

  • 4 votes
#4.6 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

I used to want to open a Bar near the Chicago lake front that has all The Charlie Chaplin movies running in a loop on big screens. I still might... :)

  • 4 votes
#4.7 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 7:18 PM EDT
Reply
GW-292081

The story is supposedly about "yet another case of the extent of which blatant prosyletisation is tolerated in the modern US military", yet shoots itself in the foot at the jump by admitting that the military did indeed punish the trooper(s) that passed out these coins, which indicates that US military policy does not support this and has rules in place against it.
Military rules and regulations in a war zone over ride many individual rights, that comes with the job, but it would appear the the leftist disdain for Christianity leads them to urge that the First Amendment rights of US citizens be suspended.
Take this quote from a critic of the so-called Christian Right.
" Liberals' writing about the Christian Right's take-over plans has generally taken the form of conspiracy theory," Sara Diamond

Its gotten to the point that Liberals recoil from any mention of Christianity like Dracula faced with a cross.
Whether I agreed with the so called Dominionists or not they'd still have the right to make their feelings on the subject of religion known.
You don't see much protest to the CPUSA promoting Communist philosophy in the US or the Trotskyite farm Labor Democrats holding office in minnesota. If these people want to tie their brand of religion to their political beliefs they have that right under the first amendment. At least they are open about it.
The story left the impression that the Dominionists had in some unexplained way been responsible for "one of the oldest Christian communities in the world has been decimated because of aggressive dominionist "missionary" groups. "
It has been only a month or perhaps two since a major Iraqi Christian cleric was kidnapped and murdered by Muslim extremists. The Iraqi Christian communities have been targeted for extortion, kidnapping, and murder by Muslim extremist for years, yet we are to believe that a few big haired TV ministers somehow "decimated" them or some other unnamed community.

  • 1 vote
Reply#5 - Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:58 PM EDT
winsomecowboy

Your argument is ridiculous, you seriously believe that liberals are anti-christian, satanic actually if your clumsy dracula analogy was actually peeled away.

Anyone who would believe themselves so threatened that they had to wipe out the entire liberal churchgoing population of America in order to try and make some hamfisted colonic point about their own sense of persecution as a poor beleaguered self admitted majority is sadly beyond childish and has sadly inescapably it seems strayed into the cul de sac of delusion.

I pity your inability to discuss and your obvious illness where you equate bombast with thought.

toodle oo.

  • 7 votes
#5.1 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 12:16 AM EDT
Cletus Wilbury

GW-292081

You might want to read: The ACLU and Freedom of Religion and Belief to understand the distinctions some us consider important.
Some excerpts:

Religious freedom is a fundamental human right that is guaranteed by the First Amendment's Free Exercise and Establishment clauses.[1] It encompasses not only the right to believe (or not to believe), but also the right to express and to manifest religious beliefs. These rights are fundamental and should not be subject to political process and majority votes. Thus the ACLU, along with almost every religious and civil rights group in America that has taken a position on the subject, rejects the Supreme Court's notorious decision of Employment Division v. Smith. In Smith, Justice Scalia wrote that the accommodation of religion should be left "to the political process" where government officials and political majorities may abridge the rights of free exercise of religion. ...

Religion is pervasive in the public square in the United States - and it is constitutionally protected. The ACLU has long defended individuals, families, and religious communities who wish to manifest their religion in public. (Learn More) ...

Some people, however, mistakenly use the word "public" when they really mean "governmental. ...

In the U.S. the Marines would be perfectly within their rights to do this. But the Marine Corps has ordered them not to in Iraq, for reasons one can find in COIN FM3-24.

  • 5 votes
#5.2 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:22 AM EDT
Reply
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

"prosyletisation" is spelled proselytization and is misspelled in the article, from the root proselytize. Sorry, but I see others repeating the mistake and have seen it before, no big deal...I just watch a spelling bee on TV and really got into it...weird.

And on a more positive note, great article, as I personally am a strong believer that everyone should strive for religious apostasy for a better world. But thats just me.

  • 5 votes
#6 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 12:32 AM EDT
Gwenny

but I see others repeating the mistake and have seen it before, no big deal...I just watch a spelling bee on TV and really got into it...weird.

Don't people use spell check. I use Firefox and it under-lines every word I misspell. For instance, I just left an "s" out of misspell and was able to right click and fix it. It doesn't fix my grammar, but . . oh well, you will all just have to decipher my blatherings. LOL

  • 6 votes
#6.1 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
Cletus Wilbury

Firefox is a savior. (did I spell that right? it's not complaining)

  • 3 votes
#6.2 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:15 AM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

I have all the main browsers so i can sea how my web pages function in the various platforms, butt I use Safari on a regular bases and it spills checks as well, together with the Chick Spilling feature in Newsvine I still miss stuff. I don't know why?

  • 3 votes
#6.3 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
Cletus Wilbury

In my case it's because i can't type :-(

I should be the last person on earth to be allowed to complain about that sorta stuff.

  • 1 vote
#6.4 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:51 AM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

In my case it's because i can't type

How did you post that? I don't have a secretary, must be nice.

  • 4 votes
#6.5 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
Cletus Wilbury

I was told my two-fingered efforts are not considered typing.
How about 'my typing is very error-prone'?

  • 1 vote
#6.6 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:01 PM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

Just kidding, but there is actually a word for one fingered typing, it's called pecking, or Peck Typing. I do both. The record is 99 words a minute.

  • 2 votes
#6.7 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
Cletus Wilbury

Oh, yeah.

It's one of the symptoms of a 'Wet Brain' i have, can't think of the word i want to use.

99 words a minute, impressive.

I take it you use the same method? I could probably do about 20 words a minute, maybe faster.

  • 2 votes
#6.8 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:40 PM EDT
Gwenny

but there is actually a word for one fingered typing, it's called pecking, or Peck Typing. I do both. The record is 99 words a minute.

Dated a programmer who never learned to touch type. Didn't stop him at all. I remember once someone gave me an old modem that had no identifying numbers and no drivers. He popped it into a test machine in my office and sat there typing in init strings from memory at what seemed like a thousand characters a minute until he found the one that worked with the modem. ::fans self:: Geek boys make me hot. I think. It could be menopause. ;)

  • 2 votes
#6.9 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 2:05 PM EDT
Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

I know, it's amazing to watch them do this, I know a guy who works with the Company who can hack a database with one hand. It's a blur of motion..... it's like watching a cartoon.

  • 5 votes
#6.10 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 2:15 PM EDT
Cletus Wilbury

"It could be menopause."

My wife is going through that, totally amazing. She used to always be too cold, now just the opposite.

  • 2 votes
#6.11 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
Gwenny

Oh, sweetie, I've ALWAYS been hot. :wink: It's just kicked up a few degrees lately.

  • 2 votes
#6.12 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
Wheel

PMS Red Flag gives men a fighting chance.

    #6.13 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
    Gwenny

    I know a guy who works with the Company who can hack a database with one hand.

    ::looks innocent:: I wonder where he learned to do that? ::giggle::

    • 3 votes
    #6.14 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:21 PM EDT
    Cletus Wilbury

    Gwenny -

    You're funny, too!

    • 2 votes
    #6.15 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:30 PM EDT
    Reply
    GW-292081

    "Anyone who would believe themselves so threatened that "
    "But hey, go play the victim of a persecuted religious majority if it makes you feel better. "
    "You cannot be a majority and act like a persecuted minority at the same time, that's illogical. "
    Formularized responses to match pre-conceived notions.
    ""prosyletisation" is spelled proselytization and is misspelled in the article,
    Glad someone pointed that out, I had my suspicions that it was another made up word but its not a term I'm used to seeing so I wouldn't have known.
    Gee I guess that since the author of the article mispelled a word then their entire point is lost.
    "as I personally am a strong believer that everyone should strive for religious apostasy for a better world. But thats just me." and thats your religious opinion, which if held strongly with ardor and faith qualifies as your "religion" by definition.
    Apostasy can get your head sawn off just about anywhere in the Muslim world these days, except in those Mid East countries whose governments are dedicated to preserving human rights, and those are few and far between.
    Perhaps some Liberals go to church, perhaps a few even believe, but unless they are willing to testify to their beliefs we can't know that now can we.
    Of course they might be like Obama, who was so proud of his congregation until it became politically expedient to distance himself from the rhetoric of the Liberalista ministers there.
    Perhaps thats the Liberation Theology I've heard so much about recently, where priests refuse to give up the cloth and the title while openly admitting that they don't believe.
    As long as people are open in their beliefs we have an opportunity to see just where they stand, or like Obama don't stand if it might cost a few votes.

    PS
    According to the spell checker "proselytization " isn't spelled right either, but who knows those gimmicks don't always work "GIGO".

      Reply#7 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:21 AM EDT
      capitalK

      "Perhaps some liberals go to church, perhaps a few even believe, but unless they are willing to testify to their beliefs we can't know that now can we.'

      Why should anyone be expected to 'testify' to anything unless subpoenaed to a court of law? Just because someone doesn't proclaim their religiosity loudly and longly, they are lesser for their silence? Hogwash. IMHO one's spirituality, religion if you must, is between the person and their God and reflected in their words and actions toward others. It's truly no one else's business.

      • 6 votes
      #7.1 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:10 AM EDT
      Jack Huang

      and thats your religious opinion, which if held strongly with ardor and faith qualifies as your "religion" by definition.

      Haha, pick up a dictionary sometime, kid.

      But man, you went from military proselytization to Obama?
      In the spirit of John Madden: "Here's someone who only sees in absolutes."

      • 6 votes
      #7.2 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
      Gwenny

      Perhaps some Liberals go to church, perhaps a few even believe, but unless they are willing to testify to their beliefs we can't know that now can we.

      ROFL What an arrogant little git. There are entire denominations, like the Unitarians, who are liberal. Jesus, if he existed, was a liberal. Who do you think Jesus would hang out with if he came back now? Republicans? Democrats? Naw, he'd be hanging with us tree-hugging hippies. So there. LOL

      • 6 votes
      #7.3 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
      Jack Huang

      Don't you know that, for many religious people (as so aptly demonstrated here), Jesus is nothing more than a brand? A T-shaped logo you slap onto your own prejudices to immunize them against criticism.

      • 11 votes
      #7.4 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
      Reply
      GW-292081

      Post Script to above

      winsomecowboy says

      "This whole bollocks, and you'll have to excuse me but that's what it is, with firmly held opinions that cannot stand any analysis and use the short term tactic of scattergun distraction, ie chaplin services for crying out loud, followed no doubt by something equally facile and immaterial and irrelevant is the new catchment process by which MSM is amalgamated into newsvine with the hope that it's free, goodwill driven, manhours will allow some new unschooled 'make a comment and join later' to actually learn the culture and get smarter instead of merely broadcasting beliefs unfounded in anything in particular apart from that great, I say obscene, conceit that all opinions are equal. "

      You failed to grasp just exactly what my opinion is. What I'm on about is freedom of speech under the first amendment, and the above case in point happens to involve religious freedom which is also protected under the first amendment.
      If you want to exercise your right to complain about someone else expressing their opinion you'd best realize that the same rights that protect you also protects them.

      "If your opinion cannot stand the merest of scrutiny and if your only defence of that opinion is either attacking strawmen or going for some childish distraction then your opinion is worthless, less than worthless because it's ignorance bleeds into our newsvine culture which is one in which opinions are respected, discussed, debated and sometimes people get smarter. "

      I'd hoped that at least some of you folks would have gotten the drift well enough to actually discuss the "opinion" that unfortunately you still haven't begun to grasp. You're too bound up in the conspiracy theories that Sara Diamond wrote of.
      The formularized responses tell the tale quite plainly.

      " It's Dominionism we're against. "
      Ohhhh Spooky, the dark hooded high priests of "Dominionism" lurking in those air conditioned corridors of power. Guess Dan Brown will have a whole new set of villains for his next potboiler.

      Well you folks have expressed your opinions in a round about and scattered manner, and avoided discussion of the real threat posed by religious extremists, while going off the deep end over one trooper and ten coins nearly as badly as the Sunnis did.

      How evil of that fellow to speak of God to children while flying.
      I remember an old poem written by a WW1 flyer, the last lines was " I stretched forth my hand and touched the face of God". Its pretty easy to think of God when you are that far up with the world below looking so peaceful.

      Lincoln had this to say.
      "I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how a man could look up into the heavens and say there is no God."

      The open sky often has that effect on people.

      Medical Science tells us that the Human Brain is "Hardwired" for religious beliefs. Till that changes you may as well get used to every Tom, Dick, or Harry expressing those beliefs whatever they might be.
      The framers of the Constitution recognized this and made provisions for it openly and unmistakably.

      Well I'm done with this, and if you had bothered to actually read my posts you'd have noticed that I did not discuss the details of my own personal beliefs beyond my understanding of the First Amendment guarantees.

      You'd have served your arguments better if you'd addressed those points I actually brought up.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#8 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 2:01 AM EDT
      dukeofgloucester

      And all of that has what, exactly, to do with A) soldiers using thier position of authority to proselytize in a war zone, or B) opposition to dominionism?

      • 4 votes
      #8.1 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 12:34 PM EDT
      Reply
      cranky old man

      Under the 1st Ammendment, we are given the right to freedom of speech and religion. But you have to consider the following point.

      These soldiers are not in America where they are protected under our Constitution. They are in someone elses back yard.

      The few Marines that have distributed these coins are endangering their lives as well as the lives of the other soldiers in the country at this time. It is a different culture over there. And the Constitution does not extend to other countries or cultures.

      This is why the Marine was discharged. I don't agree with that, but that is the end of it.

      Common sence should prevail here. You would not like me coming into your home, uninvited, and preaching that your religion was wrong and mine was right. So why should the government do the same. They can't because of how our Constitution and Bill of Rights are written.

      Those who think that the Marines have the right to do such a thing are also saying that we should re-write the 1st ammendment.

      Just because your given these rights here in America, does not mean you have them everywhere else in the world.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#9 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:02 AM EDT
      Better Careful

      There is an aspect of the wars in the Middle East that is intentionally fundamentalist-evangelical. Indeed, my neighbor's son enlisted in part so he could fight the Christian fight against the heathen Muslim and get some pay-back for 9/11. Too, it's natural that when you invade, destroy, and occupy a foreign nation, you get to feel like a big shot, and those who you have conquered get to become less than you. If you're a "big" man/woman, you might even deign to offer those poor people some of your good-time religion: even if the heathen don't get it, at least you'll cop a religious buzz pushing it.
      Reference Eric Prince and Blackwater for these dynamics, if you like. A very illustrative and revealing case lies therein.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#10 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 9:35 AM EDT
      oldfogey

      Sorry, but my attitude about Chaplains in the military was formed by a Catholic priest whose daily routine included becoming inebriated at the Officer's Club and then performing PLFs off of the bar. PLFs? Parachute Landing Falls. I would submit a military organizations would do better by including more Chaplins and fewer Chaplains. Just how does "Thou Shalt Not Kill" fit into military life?

      Yes, sorry was the right comment.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#11 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:00 AM EDT
      JCAtom

      Some fundamentalist Christians are trying to spark a war with religion...they're insidiously trying to make sure that they look like the good guys, while goading until the other side finally throws a punch.

      It's done in a way that the people they want on their side say, What's the big deal?, while the people they are picking at see the intent clearly.

      They call it spiritual, but it's really psychological warfare.

      I haven't read enough about this group yet, but this is a tactic that is being used to the detriment of the world.

      • 9 votes
      Reply#12 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:41 AM EDT
      Gwenny

      Some fundamentalist Christians are trying to spark a war with religion

      Yes, all the End Days freakazoids.

      • 4 votes
      #12.1 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
      Reply
      Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

      I don't get this Bible coin thing? How does this convert anyone? Heads you go to Heaven, tails you go to hell?

      • 7 votes
      Reply#13 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:15 PM EDT
      JCAtom

      Maybe there's a psychological component to that melding of ideas as well...'money' with 'security in the future.'

      Every time someone pulls out their change, there's a bible verse about eternity speaking to them from amidst the coinage.

      • 6 votes
      #13.1 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
      Jarandhel

      Peer pressure and intimidation. Same as Chic tracts.

      • 4 votes
      #13.2 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
      Jack Huang

      Every time someone pulls out their change, there's a bible verse about eternity speaking to them from amidst the coinage.

      Now if only the Bible coins could manage to clink out a verse.

      The legions of Jesus would be unstoppable with John 3:16 singing from their pockets.

      • 3 votes
      #13.3 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:03 PM EDT
      Gwenny

      The legions of Jesus would be unstoppable with John 3:16 singing from their pockets.

      ::slaps Jack:: Thanks. Do you know how easy that would be? Haven't you seen the stupid singing greetings cards and the coffee mugs that play music when you pick them up? Now we'll have coins reciting Bible verses in a voice like Stephen Hawking.

      • 3 votes
      #13.4 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 4:45 PM EDT
      ultrajc

      Bibles and coins? scripture on coins?
      Toss'em out of the temple!

      Jesus wept...

      • 2 votes
      #13.5 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 7:18 PM EDT
      Jack Huang

      Jesus wept...

      And they watched his tears clink down his cheeks. ;-)

      • 4 votes
      #13.6 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:29 PM EDT
      Reply
      South Florida

      I guess it's safer than large rocks being thrown back at "Our troops". I wonder if the coins skip on the sand?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#14 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 4:39 PM EDT
      cranky old man

      This is not a religious war. It should not be a war of religions.

      Christian faith can't agree on much of anything within it's own. Muslim's have the same problem. Each feel they are the only way. Somone has to be wrong, but no one will ever know until they are dead.
      And all established religions in the world have a track record of killing anyone who does not agree with them. So God like, don't you think?

      At least the communist have the right idea, they just fight because they want more of something. No faith, just pure, simple, take care of the people kind of thinking. (we all know how it really works, but it does look good on paper)

      Anyway, both sides believe in the same God. So it comes down to who makes a better cat. Lassie or Rin Tin Tin.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#15 - Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:31 PM EDT
      dadeo007Deleted
      JubalUSA

      All this fuss when some water, rations, or legal tender would have mitigated some small misery as well as sent a message of concern and acknowledgement of their presence and needs.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#17 - Wed Jun 4, 2008 4:22 PM EDT
      dadeo007Deleted
      dadeo007Deleted
      A Believer-528574

      Thanks for posting this. I have been looking for these coins. When I googled for them, your link came up. Now I know where to get them. Bless you!

      Seek the truth... decide where you want to spend eternity... It is up to you, and it is a very, very long time!

        Reply#20 - Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:50 AM EDT
        Gwenny

        Why are you ashamed for us to know who you are?

        • 2 votes
        #20.1 - Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:21 PM EDT
        Reply
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